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The
Son Also Rises
Recently Battleship Cove was privileged to interview Senator McCain for the Battleship Cove Oral History Project, Veterans’ Voices. The Cove is pleased to publish excerpts from this interview, which is available on VHS for purchase from the museum’s gift shop. To learn more about the Veterans' Voices Oral History Program at Battleship Cove, follow this link. Cove: What lessons did Annapolis
teach you about character and integrity that have stayed with you? McCain:
I think that over time, a school like the Naval Academy instills in you certain
principles, adherence to a certain code of honor, dependence on your comrades,
a class system where you are loyal to your classmates, and then, of course, a
reverence for and a desire to emulate leaders that you are taught about while
there, John Paul Jones, Bull Halsey, Teddy Roosevelt. Those kinds of people I
think. Over the four-year period, it is sort of ingrained in you. Cove:
What made you choose to be a Navy pilot? McCain:
Oh, I thought it was the most glamorous and exciting life that any person
could ever choose. That was always my goal. And my grandfather had been an aviator,
as well. Cove: Before you actually went
to Viet Nam, what did you know about the war
through the media and through the military? McCain:
I didn't know a lot. I read about various conflicts, and the battles that had
taken place, and I was aware of the gradual escalation. But like most Americans,
I had never heard of the 1954 agreements in Geneva that divided North and South
Viet Nam. I didn't have any knowledge of the background and history of the Vietnamese
people. I believed that it was the classic struggle between communism and freedom.
Cove: Referring to the time before you
were taken prisoner, how did the actual experience of being in Viet Nam differ
from what you had imagined it would be? McCain:
My views about the conflict were not affected in any way, that I can remember,
but the futility of the way we were carrying on the air war became more and more
apparent. We watched the Russian freighters pull into Haiphong Harbor and unload
the SAM 3 missiles, SAM missiles, and truck them up and put them in place. We
couldn't touch them, and then they would be fired at us. That kind of war, targets
picked by Lyndon Johnson in the basement of the White House. I remember one target
I had one day was a place that had been bombed numerous times before, and 100
yards away was a bridge. Couldn't strike the bridge, but could make the concrete
bounce at the target that I was assigned. It was foolish. And all of us who were
flying there knew it was foolish, and it was worse than that in many respects
because so many of my squadron mates and air wing mates were shot down and killed
and captured. Cove: What was a typical
day like at Yankee Station? McCain: There
were periods on Yankee Station where we had just sort of routine launches every
hour and forty minutes, where you would get probably a couple of sorties a day
where you would go out in two or four airplanes on various specific targets. The
other was when we were in kinds of operations we called Alpha Strikes, and that
would be once a day, and maximum of twice a day, where all, practically all the
air wings would be launched at one time. We would rendezvous, and then go and
strike a major target, usually up around Hanoi or the Haiphong area. On the day
I was shot down, for example, it was the thermal power plant in Hanoi that we
were striking, which was in downtown Hanoi. Those kinds of strikes required very
large numbers of airplanes. Sometimes even joining up with the air wings from
other aircraft carriers that were on station, as well. Cove:
Can you tell me about the fire aboard the Forrestal? McCain:
We were preparing for an Alpha Strike, and there was a large number of airplanes
and I was in mine, had started the engine and was going through the engine checks.
Across the flight deck from me was an F4 Phantom, and on the Phantom wings were
Zuni rockets, which are long, 6' long rockets. And the procedure that is required,
onboard safety procedures, is that there is what we call a pigtail which is an
electrical connection that goes to the rear-end of the rocket, and the way that
the rocket is fired is an electrical impulse fires the... goes through that and
fires the rocket. Well, that pigtail as it is called is not supposed to be inserted
until the airplane is on the catapult facing the water. Those rules were violated
unfortunately that day and the pigtail was inserted in the Zuni rocket, and as
the pilot went from external power which is what is used to start the engine of
the airplane, much like a commercial airliner, to internal power which means that
you use the power from... you are not dependent on the outside source of electricity
anymore. A very large charge of stray electricity went through the pigtail and
fired the Zuni rocket across the flight deck, punched through the fuel tank, the
200 gallon fuel tank that was underneath my A4 Skyhawk, and continued on. The
fuel spilled out naturally, and the fuel was on fire. And in a very short period
of time, there was a huge conflagration on the Forrestal, which ended up taking
the lives of 135 young sailors, and took about 12 to 18 hours, depending on how
you look at it, to put the fire out. I shut down the engine of my... I felt the
shock, saw the fire, and jumped out by going out on the refueling probe, and all
this is on film, by the way, because it was... we had constant filming of the
flight deck, and rolled through the fire, and went across the other side of the
flight deck, saw people running around, saw a number of things including people
with a fire hose, and I saw the pilot of the plane next to mine jump out of his
airplane, only he didn't jump as far and when he rolled out he was on fire. And
I started towards him. Just as I did, the first bomb blew off and knocked me back.
And then other bombs started going off, and that is when the conflagration started.
I would say there couldn't have been more than about 2 minutes between the time
that my airplane was hit by the Zuni rocket until the time that the first bomb
went off, which then complicated the disaster dramatically, of course. Cove:
Can you describe the circumstances under which you were taken prisoner by
the Vietnamese? McCain: Well, we were
striking the Hanoi thermal power plant. It was a very large air strike. We came
in, there was heavy and concentrated, both anti-aircraft fire and surface-to-air
missiles were everywhere. At that time, Hanoi was the most heavily defended place
in history. And as I rolled in to bomb the target, I rolled in and sighted on
the thermal power plant which sat on the end of a lake called Truc Bach Lake,
the Western lake, and just as I released the bombs and started to pull back on
the stick, a surface-to-air missile hit and took the right wing off my airplane.
My airplane violently gyrated. I ejected, as the airplane was going down, striking
my knee on the canopy when I went out, and broke my arm, as well, both my arms,
and parachuted into a lake called the Western Lake. I had some difficulty getting
my life-vest to inflate, had to use my teeth to pull the toggle on it, and after
struggling around, and then when I floated to the surface, some Vietnamese came
out and pulled me into shore. The crowd was rather angry, which is understandable,
and they hit me and broke my shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayonetted me a couple
of times, and then the Army guys came and took pictures of some woman giving me
a cup of tea, and threw me into a truck and took me to the Hoa Lo Prison, which
we know of as the Hanoi Hilton, an old French prison - built by the French - prison
in downtown Hanoi. Cove: Can you tell
me about living conditions at the Hanoi Hilton, and how they changed after you
refused early release? McCain: The conditions
were very poor in the first few years. Guards were very tough. Food was poor,
a lot of dysentery. I lived most of the time in solitary confinement, although
I was always in contact by tapping with other prisoners. I was never beaten very
badly up until the time I refused early release, but after that it was very severe
for about eight or nine months as they attempted to get a war crimes confession
out of me. But after a while that eased off some, and then after about middle
to late 1970, after Ho Chi Minh had died, treatment changed for everybody and
it improved rather dramatically. Cove: Can
you tell me why you refused early release? McCain:
Well, I was not in good shape. I knew that the Vietnamese thought I was an
important prisoner because of my father being an Admiral and Commander of the
US Forces in the Pacific. It wasn't an easy decision, because I was in very poor
physical health, but I also knew the Code of Conduct said sick and injured go
first, and then by order of capture. Edward Alvarez had been there three years
before I ever got there. Unfortunately, I did not have much communication except
with the guy in the cell next to me, so I had no contact with the senior ranking
officer. But I made the decision that it was better for me to go home in order.
I am very happy I didn't know I was going to be there for another three years.
Cove: Did that have to do with a code
of honor? McCain: Well, the Code of Conduct,
which was a result of the Korean War, which was our first experience with the
"brain washing". Thirty-seven Americans after the Korean War chose to
live in China and not come back to the United States. The Code of Conduct was
developed and it says very clearly I will not accept parole, I will go home in
order of capture, except for those who are sick and injured. So it was very clear
in the Code of Conduct. The question was how sick and injured was I, and that
was a bit of a question to say. Wisest decision that I ever made. Cove:
You referred to many POW's by name in your book. How many of these men did
you actually have the opportunity to communicate with directly while in prison? McCain: Well, during the first few years,
very few. Only those in the cells around me, because we were kept either in solitary
confinement, or two to a cell. Later on, when we were put in large rooms of 25
to 30 POW's in each, I got to know very well maybe about 40 to 50 POW's. McCain:
Humor is vital to one's resistance and mental stability. We used to play this
program that we called Hanoi Hannah, and it was a radio program every morning
and every evening, and it was always entertaining. And to make fun of the guards
rather than be afraid of them, we called the camp commander Slope Head, and we
would give different names to different guards. It is very important. Communication
is absolutely essential. A sense of humor is very important. If you don't have
that, you have a tendency for your captor to become larger and larger and more
and more powerful, and therefore you are more and more intimidated. If you laugh
at them, then it puts them back to their actual size. Cove:
How much did you know about the progress of the war while you were a prisoner? McCain: We knew more by omission than commission.
For example, I remember hearing night after night about how Khesanh was going
to fall, that the Marines were surrounded, and they had no chance. And then one
night we didn't hear about Khesanh anymore, which clearly indicated to us that
it had not fallen. And most of the rest of it was just such blatant propaganda
that you just dismissed it. So it was hard to know what was going on. What we
really didn't appreciate, because we blocked out most of the information, was
how strong the anti-war movement had become in the United States. That came as
a great surprise to us. When I was shot down in 1967, the anti-war movement was
just another irritant, and so it was hard for us to imagine how divisive the war
had become in our society until we came out. It was probably my greatest surprise.
Cove: How did you first find out about
that? McCain: Well, they told us all
this stuff, you know, but we didn't believe it. I mean, whatever... anywhere in
the world someone burned an American flag, we would hear about it. But we dismissed
it as just communist propaganda. It wasn't until we got out and found out that
it really was one of the most divisive crises in the history of our country. Cove: What were some of the traits of your
fellow prisoners that you admired most? McCain:
Courage, ingenuity, humor. I was privileged to observe a thousand acts of courage
and compassion and love. It is the great honor of my life. Cove:
Can you tell me about your release from the prison camp, and how you adjusted
to everyday life back in the United States? McCain:
The Vietnamese divided us up into different camps in groups of when we had
been shot down because their releases were: First group released were the earliest
shot down—Alvarez and company—and second group, and third group. I think
there were like five groups over a period of about three months. And the Vietnamese
came and gave us shoes, they gave us pants and a shirt, and the food obviously
was really dramatically good, the first time we had stuff to read. And one day
they took us outside of the camp, and we got on the buses, and the buses went
to the airport in Hanoi, and we got off the buses and there was a table with Vietnamese
Americans. They called out your name and you went forward. An American greeted
you, and you got on the airplane. We went and spent about three days in the Philippines,
where we got initial physical exams and that kind of thing, and then flew back
to the places that we had been stationed when we were shot down. In my case, it
was Jacksonville, Florida. And it took me about 45 minutes to adjust. I have never
had a nightmare, never had a flashback, never had any difficulties at all. Some
physical difficulties, obviously, but it didn't take me anytime at all to adjust.
The last couple of years we were together in groups, and we did a lot of things,
from history classes and mathematics, to putting on plays and skits and movies,
and playing cards, and so you know, it wasn't as if I had just walked out of three
years of solitary confinement into the outside world. So it didn't take most of
us long at all. Cove: What experiences
prompted you to go into politics? McCain:
My last job in the Navy was the Navy Liaison Officer to the Senate in a small
office in the Russell Senate Office Building. I and a then-Marine Major Jim Jones,
who later became the Commandant of the Marine Corp and now is the head of NATO,
and I worked there. And I got interested in the political process. Because I observed
it here, I saw how impactful a hard-working, dedicated, knowledgeable member of
the Senate can be, so I aspired to be one. Cove:
What do you consider to be some of your major successes as a public servant?
Cove:
You refer to Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls. How do you feel that your
life and your public service has gone according to the philosophies extolled in
that book? McCain: Well, Robert Jordan,
Hemingway's hero and protagonist in For Whom the Bell Tolls, was a man who was
dedicated, selfless, brave, capable, but also stoic. He recognized that the cause
he served was a flawed one, but he still served it to the point where he was willing
to sacrifice his life even if not only the cause, but the particular enterprise,
the blowing up of a bridge, would have no effect on the conflict. He still went
out and did it, and then was willing to sacrifice his very life, and his final
words were, "The world is a fine place, and worth the fighting for, and I
will hate very much to leave it.” Cove:
What is your idea of honor from your father and from your grandfather? McCain: My idea of honor is to serve a cause
greater than your self-interest. And there are lots of good causes. And you can
serve them in many ways. You don't have to serve them in the Spanish Civil War,
as Robert Jordan did, you can serve them in your own community and even in your
own home. Cove: You told the story of
your father's presence at Operation Torch during
World War II, and on the submarine Gunnel. Did he ever mention seeing the
USS Massachusetts which was also there? McCain: You know, I am sure he did, but I
honestly don't remember. Cove: Is there
anything else that we should talk about? McCain: No, except to say that I have been very fortunate in my life. I think I am probably the luckiest person that you will ever interview. I survived many near-death experiences. I have had the privilege of serving the country now for 22 years in the Navy, and now nearly 22 years in the Congress of the United States, and I have had opportunities to see and be involved in some important moments in the history of our country, played a very, very small role in our country's great story, and so I think that I am really the most fortunate person that I have ever known or heard of, and truly blessed. Cove: I
do have one more question for you, and that is what do you think about our current
involvement and the possibility of going to war with Iraq? McCain: I think it is very likely that we will be in a conflict. I think it will be brief, I think we will win with a minimum of casualties, although any casualty is a tragedy. And I think we have the opportunity to put a democratic form of government in Iraq and end a very brutal, oppressive regime on the people of Iraq. So I regret that we have to do this because we will lose American lives, but at the same time, I think there is a possibility of doing great and wonderful things. |